Curse

Alvar · Sep 08, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

i agree just because warriors have amor (more) dosent make them better.

Darkpower Alchemist · Sep 09, 2007, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Geez, back to the AoB attacks again? Look, to say that AoB is pathetic or useless has to be based on something in reality. As an individual skill, in comparison to its counterparts, AoB is like making your Dervish into a warrior equivalent. This should only be considered when no warrior is available.

The thought that the running speed prevents the player from maintaining aggro is pure nonsense. It has its place, and it is up to the individual player or the team he/she is playing with to determine if its use is warranted. A fully funtional AoB with all mentioned skills can do what any warrior with any elite can do on the level of dealing damage effectively. That is what matters when playing AoB. Melandru/Lyssa/Dwayna all have uses that are not the use that AoB fills in for. Melandru counters heavy conditions,Dwayna is for heavy hexes, and Lyssa for skill hounds/casters with long casts.

Balthazar is just the warrior equivalent.

Dr Strangelove · Sep 09, 2007, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Spending a slot to make you the same thing as another class is not a good use of your elite.

If you want to kill stuff, bring lyssa or melandru. You should probably want to kill stuff instead of playing wannabe warrior.

~ Dan ~ · Sep 09, 2007, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Spending a slot to make you the same thing as another class is not a good use of your elite.

If you want to kill stuff, bring lyssa or melandru. You should probably want to kill stuff instead of playing wannabe warrior.

QFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Look, to say that AoB is pathetic or useless has to be based on something in reality.

Reality = it does nothing useful for an elite.

Quote:

The thought that the running speed prevents the player from maintaining aggro is pure nonsense.

So what is the 33% faster useful for? VoS general runner > AoB / eternal aura runner. And between fights Pious Haste is a great speed buff.

Stormlord Alex · Sep 09, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

The thought that the running speed prevents the player from maintaining aggro is pure nonsense.

Actually... moving faster than normal makes stuff lose aggro.
It's not nonsense, just AI.

AoB is shit, seriously.
Either own face as Mel or Lyssa, or run a proper tank with spell immunity.
Balth is a shoddy excuse for a skill that does very little, except impress idiots.

blue.rellik · Sep 10, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Okay, I'm back. I've looked through my posts and I will admit that I did fall into my Warrior fanboyism, I'll try and post more objectively now

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

In my first reply to you, i stated the situations that VoS is good in (and i use it for). That's dual farming tombs (along with most areas in the game) with a hero bonder. I'll also tell you now it works for running and farming FoW beach + cave. I'll also tell you no other elite fits the job better. My point is, My use of VoS and my highest DPS build.. are different.

Okay then my bad, I has assumed your VoS build WAS your highest DPS build. I'll get off that issue then because it was a misunderstanding on my part

Quote:

Where the hell did this come from? Each dervish piece = 70AL. Warrior is 80. So without the shield, you have 10 more. So even with your shield that's what, 26 more armour?

Warriors have a innate +20 vs Physical

Quote:

The ability to have 10 pips of regen deals with that. And before you say "so you load up 8 enchants to counter degen"... I run a prot monk hero, i take damage = he'll prot me. More enchants = More regen.

While that is very powerful and all, a dervish needs to rely on some skills to survive the front lines as much as a warrior. That said needing skills to survive the frontlines isn't that bad since a packed out dervish can survive better than a warrior under the right circumstances

Quote:

???? I'll use a simple example here non-derv related. An ele can be vulnerable to melee as it's a squishie, yes? So they take Mist Form, thus countering that weakness. So they are no longer affected by melee hate. (don't comment on mist form.. idc if it's a good elite or not, merely an example.) So your point is, a Dervish bar can have counters to "things that counter a dervish" but yet those things still work?

My point was that a dervish needs a counter for nearly everything because nearly everything can counter a dervish. In the worst of times a dervish can be a low armour warrior that dies a lot. At the best of times a dervish can look at the whole party dealing great damage with great survivability. It's because the scope of a Dervish is the greatest out of all classes in the game that gives really high and low points.

Quote:

Do you even play PvE?

I am still in Pre-searing Ascalon trying to kill my first Skale Tad so I can finish my first quest and get Frenzy and Heal sig

Spiking is doing as much damage as possible in the shortest time. Running into a large mob is not spiking. It is suicide

Quote:

I stated VoS is a good elite as it gives you immunity to casters, which is superior in certain places.. i.e. covering bonds in dual tombs.

It is not good. It is a niche elite that is only useful in certain areas. You can take it in certain areas but you're either giving up killing power (like [skill]Wounding Strike[/skill] and [skill]Reaper's Sweep[/skill]) or if you want to tank then there are far better alternatives ([skill]Obsidian Flesh[/skill])

Quote:

Review your posts, then seriously ask me that again. I can tell by the manner of your replies you don't think a Dervish can compete with Warriors, as.. every one of your posts has been made to argue in favour of Warrior, and criticize the Dervish class.

Yeah I'll agree there. I let my fanboyism get the better of me

Quote:

And... Dslash is the best DPS build in the entire game. Strange how every warrior prefers to run eviscerate now.. or that ele is the win button in PvE. Mmmhm I guess unconditional DW > Dslash bar. Ok.

Eviscerate is mainly used in PvP where everyone kills with spiking. DPS is easily countered which is why DSlash isn't used in PvP. PvE is different, in NM DSlash eats through everything much faster than Eviscerate does (remember that DPS =/= spiking. Dslash = DPS, Eviscerate = spiking) so a deep wound is always necessary as it is in PvP

Also Eles aren't as flash as they used to be. [skill]Searing Flames[/skill] is pretty weak now. It's been hit with too many nerfs to be really really viable, I used to run Souske/Zhed SF eles but now I run MoW/Olias [skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] because it amount of armour-ignoring DPS it does is amazing.

Triple heat builds work but because less effective in HM since everything can run out of it faster and they take less damage, SS on the other hand only does more damage in HM. I might be biased here but honestly as far as PvE is concerned, I'll take a SS necro over a ele 95% of the time.

~ Dan ~ · Sep 10, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

I am still in Pre-searing Ascalon trying to kill my first Skale Tad so I can finish my first quest and get Frenzy and Heal sig

Gl.

Quote:

Spiking is doing as much damage as possible in the shortest time. Running into a large mob is not spiking. It is suicide

In GW:EN, the Quetzal have a monster skill Tengu's Gaze. It seemed to me that when you have the skill on you, that whole mob focuses on that one particular target. Also, the mandragor have a nice condition spike. That's just two off the top of my head. I guess with GW:EN the monsters had a big AI update, but spiking does happen.

Quote:

My point was that a dervish needs a counter for nearly everything because nearly everything can counter a dervish. In the worst of times a dervish can be a low armour warrior that dies a lot. At the best of times a dervish can look at the whole party dealing great damage with great survivability. It's because the scope of a Dervish is the greatest out of all classes in the game that gives really high and low points.

I found a post in this thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0196356&page=5

Quote:

Know what creatures do and adjust to it. Simple.

This is why I believe experienced Dervishes really excel. The class has counters to pretty much anything in the game, and you can specifically build for your area in question.

Quote:

It is not good. It is a niche elite that is only useful in certain areas. You can take it in certain areas but you're either giving up killing power (like [skill]Wounding Strike[/skill] and [skill]Reaper's Sweep[/skill]) or if you want to tank then there are far better alternatives ([skill]Obsidian Flesh[/skill])

I dont want to tank

It is a good elite in the circumstances I use it in.

Quote:

Eviscerate is mainly used in PvP where everyone kills with spiking. DPS is easily countered which is why DSlash isn't used in PvP. PvE is different, in NM DSlash eats through everything much faster than Eviscerate does (remember that DPS =/= spiking. Dslash = DPS, Eviscerate = spiking) so a deep wound is always necessary as it is in PvP

I still don't see most Warriors giving the "highest DPS build in the game" the credit it should have.

Quote:

Also Eles aren't as flash as they used to be. [skill]Searing Flames[/skill] is pretty weak now. It's been hit with too many nerfs to be really really viable, I used to run Souske/Zhed SF eles but now I run MoW/Olias [skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] because it amount of armour-ignoring DPS it does is amazing.

Triple heat builds work but because less effective in HM since everything can run out of it faster and they take less damage, SS on the other hand only does more damage in HM. I might be biased here but honestly as far as PvE is concerned, I'll take a SS necro over a ele 95% of the time.

I prefer to run 3 ele heroes on dual attune spamming rodgort's, along with Cynn, and if in GW:EN / Nightfall, Herta too

glountz · Sep 10, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

This is why I believe experienced Dervishes really excel. The class has counters to pretty much anything in the game, and you can specifically build for your area in question.

Yeah but no. I agree you can counter pretty much everything, but you are countered by pretty much everything also. And the true fact is that dervishes needs to bring skills to counter whatever they like. And that means that they will lack some skills to do others stuff. Yes packing DPS boosting skills like Eternal Aura+Aura of Holy Might+ Vow of strenght+any conjure or Judge'sInsight+whatever will actually kill mobs with 100+hits, but you will devote your skillbar to DPS, letting the "countering" aspect alone.
Yes you can counter everything with a Dervish but not at the same time. If you counter hexes you won't counter conditions, and to counter the most basic source of defeat, damage, you need to bring skills or you'll waste your monks' energy.
The warrior don't need any skill to have a monster defense and DPS. The Dervish have a natural higher DPS thanks to their AoE scythe, but for everything else, they are pretty much screwed.
And the worst is that warrior have, with paragons, the best party-wide support of the game. Paragons were overnerfed for a reason you know. Just WY! on a warrior will so easily boost not only yours but every party members armor its cheating. A derv IMHO have very niche roles compared to Warriors. They can't protect the whole party while bashing targets, whereas warriors do. If they need to cast protective enchants, they have to stop bashing, whereas warriors do not.
Do you want to trade wide party support and better survivability for more DPS?
That's what the OP needs to answer.

~ Dan ~ · Sep 10, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

If you counter hexes you won't counter conditions

Did you hardly read my post? I build for the area in question. A simple example would be, hmm.. a few of the norn areas that are overloaded with mandragor. Melandru makes me immune to that lethal condition spike. No, Melandru doesn't counter hexes also, but there are none. I don't need to counter both at once.

Btw, D/Mo Avatar of Dwayna + mending touch, anybody? There's a nice self heal, hex removal and condition removal in 2 skills, allowing for the rest of my bar to be filled with damage buffing enchants / attack skills / ias.

Quote:

The warrior don't need any skill to have a monster defense and DPS.

Ok, i'll let your base AL remove blind, anti-melee hexes and the like. I am sick of hearing every Warrior look to their superior armour level as a reason to think they are above everyone else.

And of course your warrior needs skills to boost DPS. Your statement is basically saying with a blank skill bar you do more DPS than a Dervish. Look at the scythe base damage please.

Quote:

The Dervish have a natural higher DPS thanks to their AoE scythe, but for everything else, they are pretty much screwed.

You have no idea what you just said.

Quote:

If they need to cast protective enchants, they have to stop bashing, whereas warriors do not.

Yea, because those 1/4 sec enchants really take out alot of "bashing time". What about your heal sig? Ah, that's right, you leave it all to your monk rather than give him a hand with self heal and stuff. If i'm removing blind and hexes off me, i'm freeing up his energy to spend on someone else who is in trouble. That is teamwork.

glountz · Sep 10, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Dan, you're just a Dervish-biased troll. Will answer your nonsense then let you spit your rageposts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Did you hardly read my post? I build for the area in question. A simple example would be, hmm.. a few of the norn areas that are overloaded with mandragor. Melandru makes me immune to that lethal condition spike. No, Melandru doesn't counter hexes also, but there are none. I don't need to counter both at once.

Yes there are. If you had cleared some Norn Areas, you would have met gentle guys named jotun trolls. Their mesmers are good. BTW Mandragors have some hexes too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Btw, D/Mo Avatar of Dwayna + mending touch, anybody? There's a nice self heal, hex removal and condition removal in 2 skills, allowing for the rest of my bar to be filled with damage buffing enchants / attack skills / ias.

What forbid a warrior from bringing mending touch as well, I wonder. Avatar of Dwayna is an elite form (taking your elite skill) that tries to replace badly the role of a Monk. I could understand its use in limited parties (4 people), but in an eight party, you don't have to devote your elite to a job done by some key role characters in your party. Monks are there for this. Bringing Dwayna is really useful in Hex heavy areas (and still you'll prefer a Divert Hexes monk).
And again, you're bringing a skill to counter. Warriors generally take a damage elite skill cause it's just their job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Ok, i'll let your base AL remove blind, anti-melee hexes and the like. I am sick of hearing every Warrior look to their superior armour level as a reason to think they are above everyone else.

Actually you're right near the truth. The power of a warrior lies in its equipment. It can cut down hex durations, and blind duration too by wearing the correct runes. In PVE simply by switching sets I can use a shield+rune to reduce by 33% blind duration. A shield is overpowered also. It grants you +30 health (+45 conditionnaly), damage reduction, + armor against some damage kinds etc... Heck, even monks are using shields nowadays in PvP. Again, without bringing any skill. Plus a superior armor. etc... etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

And of course your warrior needs skills to boost DPS. Your statement is basically saying with a blank skill bar you do more DPS than a Dervish. Look at the scythe base damage please.

Yes, 9-41. With a really low attack rate. Crits makes its weapon powerful.... When they happen. In PVE, Dervishes are actually less powerful than in PvP against single targets. Actually, monster's high level reduces scythe crit potential and rarely turn their back for you. Scythe damage is superior to any warrior weapon only if they AoE. Which, I agree, happen quite a bit in mob clusters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Yea, because those 1/4 sec enchants really take out alot of "bashing time". What about your heal sig? Ah, that's right, you leave it all to your monk rather than give him a hand with self heal and stuff. If i'm removing blind and hexes off me, i'm freeing up his energy to spend on someone else who is in trouble. That is teamwork.

No PVE warrior bring heal signet. When you're the tank, it's a suicide signet.
No and you're proving yourself as a self centered ego. You won't win a monk on their game. They actually heal, remove, and protect you better than you could. Because that's their role and what they are made for.
You actually saying you can do everything you want but the real thing is that some proffessions does it better than you.
Healing yourself, removing conditions, yes and then? What if you're not the center of the universe? Can you heal other people? remove hexes from other people? No, most dervish skills are self-centered. For example, conviction will grants you +24 armor. Okay. WY! will grant to your WHOLE PARTY 20 armor. See? That's where warriors are vastly superior to dervishes.

Dervishes have niche roles, when your party is limited especially. Dervishes in PvP are often chosen in split 5/3 at the flag stand, due to the limited party size there.

nem coke · Sep 10, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Spiking is doing as much damage as possible in the shortest time. Running into a large mob is not spiking. It is suicide

Spiking is actually killing target before the defense can react.

~ Dan ~ · Sep 10, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Dan, you're just a Dervish-biased troll. Will answer your nonsense then let you spit your rageposts.

And you, have the attitude i hate. You are the reason non-core professions are looked down upon and vastly rejected in PUGS. I am merely sticking up for my favourite class because, if you look at this thread, near enough every warrior is thrashing the Dervish, and i'm sick of it.

Quote:

Yes there are. If you had cleared some Norn Areas, you would have met gentle guys named jotun trolls. Their mesmers are good. BTW Mandragors have some hexes too.

Refer to my mention of Dwayna.

Quote:

What forbid a warrior from bringing mending touch as well

Good, now remove a hex and heal at the same time, too.

Quote:

Avatar of Dwayna is an elite form (taking your elite skill) that tries to replace badly the role of a Monk.

No, it provides self-sufficiency. You make me laugh. So caught up in the fact Warrior's don't use self heal, therefore, anyone who does is a wannabe monk!!

Quote:

Monks are there for this. Bringing Dwayna is really useful in Hex heavy areas (and still you'll prefer a Divert Hexes monk).

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10077894

Quote:

Also remember that everyone in your team is as responsible to keep himself alive as you are. You are just helping your teammates a bit in that task, but you are not superman.

This thread was stickied for a reason. There's also a reason i like to run a support character to help my monks, such as a para (mainly e-battery / BIP), or a restoration rit. No, i'm not the support char, but as well as dealing good damage i can still do my bit to help keep the team up, with a simple Watchful Intervention here or an Imbue health there, just when the pressure gets too much.

Quote:

And again, you're bringing a skill to counter. Warriors generally take a damage elite skill cause it's just their job.

Or because they simply have nothing else to bring.

Quote:

Actually you're right near the truth. The power of a warrior lies in its equipment. It can cut down hex durations, and blind duration too by wearing the correct runes.

Removal > Reduction. I'd rather remove blind than cut 2 secs or so off the duration time and still sit there. And don't forget whilst taking runes to reduce blind duration, your giving up better choices.

Quote:

With a really low attack rate.

The same speed as a hammer, and 0.32 of a second slower than a sword / axe. My god, your right, that is so slow!!

/endsarcasm

Quote:

You won't win a monk on their game. They actually heal, remove, and protect you better than you could.

Again, you assume anyone bringing self heal is just trying to be a monk. You won't believe how wrong you are. Just because Warrior's don't bring self heals, doesn't mean everyone else has to be an energy sink for the monk.

Quote:

Healing yourself, removing conditions, yes and then? What if you're not the center of the universe? Can you heal other people? remove hexes from other people?

I can heal other people. Can u?

Quote:

For example, conviction will grants you +24 armor. Okay. WY! will grant to your WHOLE PARTY 20 armor. See? That's where warriors are vastly superior to dervishes.

Again, your sole belief is that a Warrior is better than a Dervish because of armour. So therefore, a Paragon is better than a Monk because he also has more armour, seeing as that's your theory.

Quote:

Dervishes have niche roles, when your party is limited especially.

They do not have a niche role. Simply put, you have no clue of a Dervish's contribution to a team. He is not just the damage dealer. He can be far more versatile.

Tyla · Sep 10, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

What forbid a warrior from bringing mending touch as well, I wonder. Avatar of Dwayna is an elite form (taking your elite skill) that tries to replace badly the role of a Monk. I could understand its use in limited parties (4 people), but in an eight party, you don't have to devote your elite to a job done by some key role characters in your party. Monks are there for this. Bringing Dwayna is really useful in Hex heavy areas (and still you'll prefer a Divert Hexes monk).
And again, you're bringing a skill to counter. Warriors generally take a damage elite skill cause it's just their job.

so,ruling out 50 heal and hex removal ON SKILL USE is actually taking the monks job?no.its making the monk's jobs EASIER,and especially in certain pvp types where your splitting.so - using mending touch,getting healed,losing 2 conditions AND a hex,is not worth it because its a monks job?2 words:self heal,you cant expect monks to take over most places,because they will eventually lose all energy sometime.

Tyla · Sep 10, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

No PVE warrior bring heal signet. When you're the tank, it's a suicide signet.
No and you're proving yourself as a self centered ego. You won't win a monk on their game. They actually heal, remove, and protect you better than you could. Because that's their role and what they are made for.
You actually saying you can do everything you want but the real thing is that some proffessions does it better than you.
Healing yourself, removing conditions, yes and then? What if you're not the center of the universe? Can you heal other people? remove hexes from other people? No, most dervish skills are self-centered. For example, conviction will grants you +24 armor. Okay. WY! will grant to your WHOLE PARTY 20 armor. See? That's where warriors are vastly superior to dervishes.

Dervishes have niche roles, when your party is limited especially. Dervishes in PvP are often chosen in split 5/3 at the flag stand, due to the limited party size there.

Also,WY! is only one skill,including its not to whole party,its to party members...IN EARSHOT - plus if that skill alone is "where the derv goes wrong" then your terribly mistaken - and not everyone uses conviction AND it gives your second/first profession more flexibility.

btw,monks arent the ONLY healers,restoration rits can work well behind the scenes of derv skill:[skill]vow of silence[/skill] through spirits,just because you cant think of using a dif profession towards healing every now and then doesnt show that it cant be used,and btw dervs if using that will enchant before using VoS ANYWAY...

Chicken Ftw · Sep 10, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

so,ruling out 50 heal and hex removal ON SKILL USE is actually taking the monks job?no.its making the monk's jobs EASIER,and especially in certain pvp types where your splitting.so - using mending touch,getting healed,losing 2 conditions AND a hex,is not worth it because its a monks job?2 words:self heal,you cant expect monks to take over most places,because they will eventually lose all energy sometime.

I was staying out of this topic for my own sanity's sake, but I couldn't resist this one. Who the f*ck uses dwayna in PvP? It might be ok for some nub griefer build in RA, but nowhere else. Keep that shit in PvE.

Also, if your monks are always running out of energy and need your help in the form of self-heals, your monks are shitty and need replacing. Well, they would if you were actually trying to win, but you think running dwayna in PvP is good, so I'd say they belong with you, in scrub arenas and PvE, where skill isn't necessary.

blue.rellik · Sep 11, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by nem coke

Spiking is actually killing target before the defense can react.

That's basically a continuation on what I said. You need as much damage as you can to dothat

pingu666 · Sep 11, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

dwyana's my favourite avatar actully, nice utility/pressure reduction, is funny with victious sweep, works well with shouts too. probably worth sticking some in tatics or command for watch yourself/go for the eyes/solider strike?

shes also the prettiest, lyssa looks like a fat chav

. avatars are a fun mechanic aswell

bhavv · Sep 11, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

How to make a Warrior useful:

[skill]yeti smash[/skill][skill]crude swing[/skill][skill]mighty blow[/skill][skill]earth shaker[/skill][skill]mokele smash[/skill][skill]"you will die!"[/skill][skill]enraging charge[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

This bar made me fall in love with warriors. I always use one now whenever I can.

A similar build for swords can be made with Dragon slash, cant be asked to type it.

nem coke · Sep 11, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

That's basically a continuation on what I said. You need as much damage as you can to dothat

A wammo with farming build can try to do as much as damage in the shortest period of time but that can't be called spike.

Also bhavv... that's nice build, Whirling Attack might be better than crude swing though. In that case you can put Crushing Blow for DW instead of Mighty Blow.

blue.rellik · Sep 12, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by nem coke

A wammo with farming build can try to do as much as damage in the shortest period of time but that can't be called spike.

Also bhavv... that's nice build, Whirling Attack might be better than crude swing though. In that case you can put Crushing Blow for DW instead of Mighty Blow.

You don't know what I'm talking about so scram